Chaos Castle / Damage Decrease / Soul Barrier

[Tokyo]

@Zutto yeah about items and wings, you kill everyone with ancient set and w2+12 on you, which is not broken lol

[Zutto]

4 minutes ago, DarkMaster said:

@Zutto yeah about items and wings, you kill everyone with ancient set on and w2+12 which is not broken lol

So I guess im op then :)? But as I said, so many variables play part.

ps, I dont use ancient  

 

[Exilia]

32 minutes ago, Zutto said:

I dont agree about DD being overpowered. Reducing it will only make people that actually just survie now because of it die faster. And it will benefit classes that can pvp in Ancient sets. which is Impossible for some classes.

Elfs are made tanky from the start, dont think its because of more agi. 0 agi vs 2000agi is about 300 def and 200ish rating, thats nothing major tbh. being tanky from the start they just scale alot better with dd then others I guess.

But..still so many variables to consider.. Items,wings,lvl,rr,ml,buil,skill.

 

 

 

 

I think you're wrong here my friend. I could bet you that any player who has reached the 60% dd cap isn't just barely surviving at the moment. They are basically immortal with 3rd wings and correct build. And reducing the max dd from 60% to 50/40% isn't going to break the game and make those characters unplayable.
E: Nobody is dependent on the 10/20% (60% -> 50/40%) damage decrease, those amounts can be fixed by building your character in a different way.
E2: And many times we're not even talking about this big numbers, it's just the theoretical maximum cap. You for example got 2 items with +7% ddi. Would you say that you're dependent on the 4% difference it would make if the maximum cap is reduced to 50%? (e.g. max ddi +7% -> +5%).

[Zaikon]

I personaly would like to see more events where you could aquire special buffs with big cooldowns. More like ultimate move and you have to chose when to use it.

Regarding to ice arrow think a random time of being iced would be quite interesting to test. It could be from 2 to 6secs all down to rng.

For me bigest issue right now is EE summons how come they are not a thing here. 0 utility

 

[Zutto]

5 minutes ago, Exilia said:

I think you're wrong here my friend. I could bet you that any player who has reached the 60% dd cap isn't just barely surviving at the moment. They are basically immortal with 3rd wings and correct build. And reducing the max dd from 60% to 50/40% isn't going to break the game and make those characters unplayable.

We can agree to disagree:) 
We dont know how it will play out on 10rr with more ml.  And I can tell you that im bearly surving  60% dd I still take 3k+ hits.. 

 

[Exilia]

29 minutes ago, Zutto said:

We can agree to disagree:) 
We dont know how it will play out on 10rr with more ml.  And I can tell you that im bearly surving  60% dd I still take 3k+ hits.. 

 

With 6k hp that shouldn't be too much of a problem  But yeah you're right. We can't know how it will turn out once people start to get closer to max resets.

[Zutto]

6 minutes ago, Exilia said:

With 6k hp that shouldn't be too much of a problem  But yeah you're right. We can't know how it will turn out once people start to get closer to max resets.

Yeah and soon we  will see other builds pop up when coming closer to max.. hint rf😜

[Tokyo]

@Zutto what do you mean 3k+ hits? who hits you that much lol

[trololo]

And again, that people are trying to customize the game for himself. I am tired, all play, hunt and dress as they see fit, all fighting for their things, skills and features. What makes you think you see the big picture ? Why I tried to make a Fenrir and you say that it gives me a priority than it is the better compared to your W3 and my W2, or AE, why can't she use all skills in CC? but you're allowed. DD its a problem now because its more easy to make a good set than a good weapon.

look from a different angle, and stop trash-talking.

[Exilia]

3 hours ago, Shuryk said:

And again, that people are trying to customize the game for himself. I am tired, all play, hunt and dress as they see fit, all fighting for their things, skills and features. What makes you think you see the big picture ? Why I tried to make a Fenrir and you say that it gives me a priority than it is the better compared to your W3 and my W2, or AE, why can't she use all skills in CC? but you're allowed. DD its a problem now because its more easy to make a good set than a good weapon.

look from a different angle, and stop trash-talking.

I'm not underestimating any work that has been done to configure this server. This has been the most balanced project I've seen ever since I joined the first edition of non reset. Your attitude towards the topic seems to be the problem if you look at this as trash talking. I have done my very best to give reasoning behind every subject I've touched here. No changes has to be made nor will ever take place unless admin thinks there's a need for them, but trying to shut down any constructive discussion about the balancing issues from our perspective is pretty naive in my opinion. Nothing is perfect and never will be, but there is always room for some improvement.

e: 

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or AE, why can't she use all skills in CC? but you're allowed.

Because it's a class that's designed for PvM play style, and the reason they gave her an ability to stun people is to deny anyone who tries to attack her. No other skill even remotely fits the same category with broken and ice arrow. Still, on this server, AE is equally strong in PvP with any other class, and in Chaos Castle, it has very little to do with PvP while she just abuses the skill without actually killing you - she locks you down and makes you fall and there is nothing you can do about it. If you are able to explain to me why she should have ice arrow in cc, with the current effect duration, I'm ready to take back everything I have said. But before you do that, I'll consider your post yet another "trash talk"-opinion, and it has very little value for sorting out this situation. 

[Solcy]

4 hours ago, Shuryk said:

And again, that people are trying to customize the game for himself. I am tired, all play, hunt and dress as they see fit, all fighting for their things, skills and features. What makes you think you see the big picture ? Why I tried to make a Fenrir and you say that it gives me a priority than it is the better compared to your W3 and my W2, or AE, why can't she use all skills in CC? but you're allowed. DD its a problem now because its more easy to make a good set than a good weapon.

look from a different angle, and stop trash-talking.

I have good weapon and still hit like noodle

[Trâu]

DD is totally fine. @Exilia can try to duel @DarkMaster. He has full ddi set. At the end of the day, your MG has only 4 item slots. Nerfing DD=buff for MG. Is that fair?

[trololo]

Because you want everything at once, and the resistance from ice, and good DMG, and that would not die. I'm not going to explain everything because you can't hear me

[ADMIN]

I like to see people involved in discussions, but you should know that this things are counted just as feedback.

We are never touching characters during an ongoing edition.

Everyone wants its character to be the best, of course, and if possible at any stage of the game. That will never happen and it's not even possible from technical point of view.

Every character is designed differently, having its own strengths and weaknesses depending on build, gear, stage of the game, event, and even the player itself.

We are developing and tweaking characters of this game for more than 3 years, adjusting formulas, damages, pvp, class vs class rates, etc. The default state of the characters (Webzen) was just a joke. But again, despite our continuous efforts it will never reach a "perfect state", it's simply not possible. You're expecting too much from such a game, if you want 100% PvP MU is not the game for that, if we think at a larger scale, not even a game like WoW is 100% on PvP (neither PvM), where differences between classes, characters and specs are huge, favoring only some of them at different things. But, just like in WoW where a Hunter (in an easy way) can make almost double DPS at PvM compared to many of other classes, the rest of them brings something different to table on each situation.

The same idea we brought for MU to have an 'overall balance' apart from class vs class things, where BALANCE doesn't mean a class is not better than the other BUT all classes are more or less equal and BRINGS different things at different moments/situations.

If we just browse all the existing tops from Phoenix we'll see all classes in the top at most of the things, ofc, some better at some points and it's not an 100% accurate view because most of the tops depends on the player (and how active he is).

If we look at some (considered by public) good players from our server they can all make their class look OP in different situations, examples can be Zutto for BK, Catarina for SUM, Ganja for AE, Coco for SM, DIEE for SMG, etc.

Are all characters playable at a decent level? Yes, they are. Are there better chars than others? Yes, they are, at different stages and at different things. Do some characters have specific tricks that can be "abused" by their class? Yes, they have (Ice arrow, Weapon skill for bosses, etc.) Is their right to use them and profit by being smart and knowing their class as it was designed by the Webzen, in the first place, without our direct impact? Yes, it's their right, as long as the impact is purely for their own interest without disturbing important things (IT, for example).

Apart from doing everything we can to ensure a fair environment to all the characters as much as we consider, we will never rework entire game or all the tricks and things that game does offer just to satisfy different individuals. 

We are running on the same core since 3 years, many of you played here multiple editions and already knew how most of the things work (or not). Everything we do is well documented pre-launch as well as post-launch. You had all the formulas (and even personal tips) of all the characters available before server launch. You had beta period as well as a permanent test-server pre and post-launch to test all characters and builds you want on any situation and gear/resets/builds. You even had 4 resets to change your class if you didn't like it. Coming here and crying about your own character or other's character is not making you look good, taking into account all the things you had in your asset to choose your character carefully.

As a conclusion we'll always adjust characters and things we consider that can be improved based on feedback, but never during an ongoing edition (and I'm speaking strictly about individual characters power/assets).

Cheers.

[Exilia]

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The default state of the characters (Webzen) was just a joke. But again, despite our continuous efforts it will never reach a "perfect state", it's simply not possible. You're expecting too much from such a game, if you want 100% PvP MU is not the game for that.

Yes, the default state was a joke indeed, and you've come a long way to make the game more enjoyable for everyone. Also I think the "perfect balance" is something that you can never achieve, but then again, we shouldn't consider the current state to be as close to perfect as it will ever get. I'm fine that no radical changes is going to take place on this edition, but since MU is the only game I keep coming back to year after year, I'd like to encourage the implementation of this project to make the gaming experience even better in the future. The idea of this poll was not to get people to vote on one thing, and then drive changes based on majorities opinion, but rather to see how people view these points themselves, and to give them the opportunity to provide an explanation for why they see things as they do. I should have been more clear with my intentions, that's my bad.

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Every character is designed differently, having its own strengths and weaknesses depending on build, gear, stage of the game, event, and even the player itself.

I do understand the idea of this, but I think it's a little paradoxical with the balancing tweaks that are taking place right now. I'd rather not repeat my self, but take an AE for example; She builds only agility which makes her one of the best PvM class as it's always been, we all know that, and many people choose to play this class since they prefer the PvM play style over PvP one. However, I don't know if it's the class being naturally tanky(due class vs. class damage), the fact that she has basically one build that works for both play styles, the current state of dd options, or combination of all these things, but she seems to be easily top tier choice for both playstyle categories.
Then comes the SM, it's often viewed as god tier PvP class with so called "class cannon" build, which hits like a truck, but lacks the survivability. This style requires the perfect support party to make it thrive, but without such it's quite easy to counter. The other end is the support build aka. agility SM. That style should be played as a tank, buffer, holder, however you wish to call it, but it does it's job great without relying on others. Then there is something mixed between those two extremity, that could be called the nirvana of SM builds. However, as the state of the game is right now, every SM seems to reach the "nirvana" quite easily, as long as they wear good gear they become almost unstoppable and fit the both categories of tank and damage dealer.

Some people criticize sMG for being over powered. What I think is that the class is pretty versatile. You can build him to be good in PvM, but that hurts your PvP abilities. Then again if you build him for PvP, that hurts your PvM abilities, a lot. And if you build him for PvP, you are very weak against players with +dd sets so there goes your damage. With the nerfs for AA weapons, being a melee character and current state of other classes and items, I'm not considering MG to be top tier PvP choice at the moment, not even close to top. Sure against anyone who doesn't build defensive stats nor gear, MG is going to hurt like hell, but you're barely scratching any tank right now. But many tanks hurt you for sure.
Unfortunately I can't give extensive opinion on other classes since I have very little experience on those. People say that DL is weak right now, but I think that with agility build they are going to be top tier in PvP as well. Summoner felt very strong few weeks ago, but I think it's starting to feel more balanced as peoples progress. For Rage Fighters I have literally nothing to say, don't know how the class works nor should work. And for BK, well, it's always the best choice for PvP if you actually know how to build and play it, but it's not easy.

What I'm trying to say is that there should be more ways to counter each play style. More diversity to build your character to be a tank, class cannon damage dealer, bruiser, support etc. Of course every class has and should have their pros and cons, but the current balancing state doesn't support those diversities, but rather favors the idea that anyone can and should be able to do anything - and in my opinion that is causing some issues. And the major issue in my opinion is that agility based builds, or characters that benefit the most from agility based builds, are heavily favored in both, PvP and PvM, no matter that for what kind of play style they are choosing their character for. To put it simple, agility based speed & defense builds > Strength based high damage builds. Damage decrease sets > Damage sets (ancient). Sure, the defensive option should exist to counter the damage option, but not with such huge marginal that it makes the damage option not worth to build around.

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Are all characters playable at a decent level? Yes, they are.

Agreed.

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Are there better chars than others? Yes, they are, at different stages and at different things.

Agreed.

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Do some characters have specific tricks that can be "abused" by their class? Yes, they have (Ice arrow, Weapon skill for bosses, etc.) Is their right to use them and profit by being smart and knowing their class as it was designed by the Webzen, in the first place, without our direct impact? Yes, it's their right, as long as the impact is purely for their own interest without disturbing important things (IT, for example).

Still can't completely agree on this one. My point was that AE has ice arrow because she used to be weak PvP class. Now she is top tier PvP class, but the ability to lock down people still exist. I see very little difference with ice arrow being disabled/enabled in Illusion Temple and Chaos Castle. In Illusion Temple, in theory, you could drop down the ball in case you get iced and let your team mates pick it up and continue carrying it. But then the other played would get iced as well and he'd have to repeat the process. That we consider not fun and disturbing of the important event.
In Chaos Castle, keep in mind that my opinion is based only on the fact that MG is melee class, and we're not able to fight back from range, the ice arrow hurts us the most. Even in a situation where AE wouldn't ice us, we're on a bad spot because she gets to land all her arrows on us from close range gaining equal strength in duel. Other ranged characters can still fight her back in case they get iced, and has the theoretical opportunity to kill her before falling down. Sure, why wouldn't they think that the ice arrow is signature ability and there is no need for change. But I feel like many people fails to look at this from a melee characters perspective. We're just doomed against a one single ability, that basically has no reason to exist in chaos castle, but still does because it was designed by the Webzen, even though the class that was designed for PvM has been changed to become a potent challenger in the field of PvP gaming. As you stated yourself that the default state by Webzen is a joke, I would very much count the ice arrow in chaos castle into this very same category. I have never said in public that ice arrow must be removed from chaos castle, but I stand behind my words that one ability, or a "specific trick", should not have such a huge abusive potential that it completely ruins the event for small group of characters.
 

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Coming here and crying about your own character or other's character is not making you look good, taking into account all the things you had in your asset to choose your character carefully.

I'm not crying about MG being weak. I'm not crying about AE, SM, soul barrier, ice arrow, damage decrease being OP. Never ever has my intentions been to cry about something. But I'm trying to provide well reasoned opinion on things that I feel like can be adjusted to get us one step closer to the utopia of perfect mu online server.

[ADMIN]

14 minutes ago, Exilia said:

Yes, the default state was a joke indeed, and you've come a long way to make the game more enjoyable for everyone. Also I think the "perfect balance" is something that you can never achieve, but then again, we shouldn't consider the current state to be as close to perfect as it will ever get. I'm fine that no radical changes is going to take place on this edition, but since MU is the only game I keep coming back to year after year, I'd like to encourage the implementation of this project to make the gaming experience even better in the future. The idea of this poll was not to get people to vote on one thing, and then drive changes based on majorities opinion, but rather to see how people view these points themselves, and to give them the opportunity to provide an explanation for why they see things as they do. I should have been more clear with my intentions, that's my bad.

I do understand the idea of this, but I think it's a little paradoxical with the balancing tweaks that are taking place right now. I'd rather not repeat my self, but take an AE for example; She builds only agility which makes her one of the best PvM class as it's always been, we all know that, and many people choose to play this class since they prefer the PvM play style over PvP one. However, I don't know if it's the class being naturally tanky(due class vs. class damage), the fact that she has basically one build that works for both play styles, the current state of dd options, or combination of all these things, but she seems to be easily top tier choice for both playstyle categories.
Then comes the SM, it's often viewed as god tier PvP class with so called "class cannon" build, which hits like a truck, but lacks the survivability. This style requires the perfect support party to make it thrive, but without such it's quite easy to counter. The other end is the support build aka. agility SM. That style should be played as a tank, buffer, holder, however you wish to call it, but it does it's job great without relying on others. Then there is something mixed between those two extremity, that could be called the nirvana of SM builds. However, as the state of the game is right now, every SM seems to reach the "nirvana" quite easily, as long as they wear good gear they become almost unstoppable and fit the both categories of tank and damage dealer.

Some people criticize sMG for being over powered. What I think is that the class is pretty versatile. You can build him to be good in PvM, but that hurts your PvP abilities. Then again if you build him for PvP, that hurts your PvM abilities, a lot. And if you build him for PvP, you are very weak against players with +dd sets so there goes your damage. With the nerfs for AA weapons, being a melee character and current state of other classes and items, I'm not considering MG to be top tier PvP choice at the moment, not even close to top. Sure against anyone who doesn't build defensive stats nor gear, MG is going to hurt like hell, but you're barely scratching any tank right now. But many tanks hurt you for sure.
Unfortunately I can't give extensive opinion on other classes since I have very little experience on those. People say that DL is weak right now, but I think that with agility build they are going to be top tier in PvP as well. Summoner felt very strong few weeks ago, but I think it's starting to feel more balanced as peoples progress. For Rage Fighters I have literally nothing to say, don't know how the class works nor should work. And for BK, well, it's always the best choice for PvP if you actually know how to build and play it, but it's not easy.

What I'm trying to say is that there should be more ways to counter each play style. More diversity to build your character to be a tank, class cannon damage dealer, bruiser, support etc. Of course every class has and should have their pros and cons, but the current balancing state doesn't support those diversities, but rather favors the idea that anyone can and should be able to do anything - and in my opinion that is causing some issues. And the major issue in my opinion is that agility based builds, or characters that benefit the most from agility based builds, are heavily favored in both, PvP and PvM, no matter that for what kind of play style they are choosing their character for. To put it simple, agility based speed & defense builds > Strength based high damage builds. Damage decrease sets > Damage sets (ancient). Sure, the defensive option should exist to counter the damage option, but not with such huge marginal that it makes the damage option not worth to build around.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Still can't completely agree on this one. My point was that AE has ice arrow because she used to be weak PvP class. Now she is top tier PvP class, but the ability to lock down people still exist. I see very little difference with ice arrow being disabled/enabled in Illusion Temple and Chaos Castle. In Illusion Temple, in theory, you could drop down the ball in case you get iced and let your team mates pick it up and continue carrying it. But then the other played would get iced as well and he'd have to repeat the process. That we consider not fun and disturbing of the important event.
In Chaos Castle, keep in mind that my opinion is based only on the fact that MG is melee class, and we're not able to fight back from range, the ice arrow hurts us the most. Even in a situation where AE wouldn't ice us, we're on a bad spot because she gets to land all her arrows on us from close range gaining equal strength in duel. Other ranged characters can still fight her back in case they get iced, and has the theoretical opportunity to kill her before falling down. Sure, why wouldn't they think that the ice arrow is signature ability and there is no need for change. But I feel like many people fails to look at this from a melee characters perspective. We're just doomed against a one single ability, that basically has no reason to exist in chaos castle, but still does because it was designed by the Webzen, even though the class that was designed for PvM has been changed to become a potent challenger in the field of PvP gaming. As you stated yourself that the default state by Webzen is a joke, I would very much count the ice arrow in chaos castle into this very same category. I have never said in public that ice arrow must be removed from chaos castle, but I stand behind my words that one ability, or a "specific trick", should not have such a huge abusive potential that it completely ruins the event for small group of characters.
 

I'm not crying about MG being weak. I'm not crying about AE, SM, soul barrier, ice arrow, damage decrease being OP. Never ever has my intentions been to cry about something. But I'm trying to provide well reasoned opinion on things that I feel like can be adjusted to get us one step closer to the utopia of perfect mu online server.

Whatever looks perfect for you and your class it doesn't for others, and it's the same loop, there is no perfect state but this is the maximum level that can be touched based on what we can or not do. Some changes can benefit some chars some changes can benefit others. Taking something from a char will be auto given to the rest. But we are doing changes on each edition so that "meta" can be changed from time to time and every char to feel good. 

You are saying about AE that she benefits to everything from the same build. While it's not completely false, only by watching formulas you can see that everything that AGI gives is very low compared to any other char (defense number, attack speed number, asr, etc). So nothing is not natural or not obtainable by others. 

Then you say AE is a PvP beast which is totally erronate statement, AE is the worst char at PvP but not as bad as it used to be. And I tell you for sure as we played 2 days class vs class (me and gion) to balance the pvp rates, AE was set to lose 10-0 to any other char with the same skill, amount of points and gear. Any single char from game can beat AE in same conditions. Not even saying that AE PvP power is only in melee range (so being like a half SMG), as on normal range it is non existent.

You then say that going on the same build is benefiting both PvP and PvM, while it is true for AE it is true for most of other chars (SMG as well). If you say that vit is an imp role I agree, but both AE and SMG for example need VIT for PvP, while SMG have 600 extra points to spend.

Does going for str-agi benefit both your pvm and pvp as SMG? It does. Then what's the problem that AE is treated the same? 

You then say that AE is abusing CC with ice vs melee chars, while it is frustrating for sure, it's the only way of winning a CC for an AE, she will never beat a SMG RF or BK in a straight fight. 

And for the crying thing, I am not referring to you, but general speaking as I read different topics and replies.

[trololo]

11 minutes ago, ADMIN said:

AE is the worst char at PvP but not as bad as it used to be.

I dont agree with Exilia point of vision but here u wrong, from all what i see her i can position AE on place 3-4 (first BK, second SM), mb u and Gion make a some test for all classes but I think you not taken into account optionary stats build.

Lttle exemple, u can have 2k agi and 200vit and u best AE on PvM, and in PvP u low, but if u put 1700 agi and 500 vit u remain best from PvM(except AE full agi) and u very stong in PvP.

 

22 minutes ago, ADMIN said:

Not even saying that AE PvP power is only in melee range

here too, for reale on this moment we have 1.5 range characters (summ and 0.5 is DL) only from summ is reason for range fight, rest clases is melee.

[ADMIN]

4 minutes ago, Shuryk said:

I dont agree with Exilia point of vision but here u wrong, from all what i see her i can position AE on place 3-4 (first BK, second SM), mb u and Gion make a some test for all classes but I think you not taken into account optionary stats build.

Lttle exemple, u can have 2k agi and 200vit and u best AE on PvM, and in PvP u low, but if u put 1700 agi and 500 vit u remain best from PvM(except AE full agi) and u very stong in PvP.

 

here too, for reale on this moment we have 1.5 range characters (summ and 0.5 is DL) only from summ is reason for range fight, rest clases is melee.

All chars have been done with standard builds of average players (which 70%+ of players are using normally). Nothing special nothing out of bounds (it's your own task to find the best build for each char depending on situation). All builds had at least 250-350 VIT depending on class (PvP purpose).

I can't agree with you, 300 extra VIT won't change anything at all. Let me tell you something that I always say, the VIT is important only for 2 things (speaking only about 1v1 situations):
- Survive before SD is 0 (so not dying without having your SD to 0 from bursts of damage).
- Not getting 1 shotted from bypass.
Anything EXTRA after this standard values of 250-350 VIT will only make you BETTER on: CS & fights where multiple buffs matters, so extra HP does matter.
In 1v1 situations, once your SD is down it's a matter of 1-4 extra attacks if you have 400 or 600 extra HP, you'll go down anyway. Ofc, BK is excluded as he depends on VIT more than anyone else, and high amount of VIT is a MUST for them.
 

I don't understand the 2nd thing about range, sorry.

[trololo]

13 minutes ago, ADMIN said:

I don't understand the 2nd thing about range, sorry.

 

54 minutes ago, ADMIN said:

Any single char from game can beat AE in same conditions. Not even saying that AE PvP power is only in melee range (so being like a half SMG), as on normal range it is non existent.

U say what power of AE only in mele range, but all clases  is mele except Summ and mb DL. BK-Combo, SM-Blast, MG-Blast/Fire Slash, RF-Chain Drive, 

[ADMIN]

19 minutes ago, Shuryk said:

 

U say what power in only in mele range, but all clases  is mele except Summ and mb DL. BK-Combo, SM-Blast, MG-Blast/Fire Slash, RF-Chain Drive, 

Yes, I was referring strictly to AE power, that she is not even advantaged of the range in PvP.
There are still rangers like ARF and also Decay-SM (even if blast is better overall, decay is still doing much more dps from range than an AE would ever do from range).
MDPS are considered those that either doesn't have range skills or their range skills are pretty awful (from PvP point of view), and which are SMG/BK/VRF,EMG, the rest of chars are decent-good from range (but yet, not best, as the longer the distance the lower the risk), but AE is barely touching anyone from range, compared to what true rangers can do from range.